Cover, Featured
Highlights
*How Infighting within Security Agencies can be Stopped
*The International Dimension of Farmers/Herdsmen Clashes
*Why Nigeria Must approach Its problem Strategically
* Open Grazing will Not Work
General Martin Luther Agwai (rtd), visiting professor, African Leadership School of Global Affairs Kings College, London, was commissioned into thee Nigeria Armed Forces in 1972. He held several positions including chief of Training and Operations of the Nigerian Armed Forces and director of Military Training at the Nigerian Defence Academy, Kaduna. He was the Nigerian military adviser at Harare, covering the whole of Southern Africa between 1993 – 1996. He was a directing staff and chief instructor at the Command and Staff College Jaji – Kaduna, Nigeria. Before becoming the chief of army staff he was the deputy military adviser at United Nations Headquarters, New York. He was the chief of defence staff of the Nigerian Armed Forces from June 1, 2006. Before that, he held several senior positions in the Nigerian Army, including being chief of army staff. He served as the commander of the combined United Nations–African Union peacekeeping force in Dafur. General Agwai led one of the biggest peacekeeping operations in the world with approximately 20,000 troops and 6,000 police under his command.
Born on November 8, 1948, in Southern Kaduna, Northern Nigeria, Agwai hails from a Christian home and was the president of Fellowship of Christian Students at Government Secondary School, Zaria, in 1967. He graduated from the Nigerian Command and Staff College, British Army Staff College, Camberley and United States Army Armor School amongst others. He holds a Post Graduate diploma in Public Administration with distinctions from the Administrative Staff College of Nigeria, ASCON, and National Defence University, Washington DC, where he obtained a Master of Science in National Resource Strategy. While at NDU, he won the Ambassadors Award for excellence in research and writing, making him the first foreigner to win the award. He retired from the Nigerian Armed Forces in December 2009.
General Agwai, made out time from his busy schedule to speak with Maureen Chigbo, editor, Realnews in February on topical issues in Nigeria especially the security situation in the country and the perennial farmers/herders clashes which have claim the lives of thousands of Nigerians with property worth millions of naira destroyed; the security implication of face-off between the Executive and legislative arm of government and how to curb rivalry among the security agencies. Excerpts:
Realnews: What have you been doing since you left office in 2009?
Agwai: In 2009, I left the Nigerian Armed Forces after I have served in Dafur as the last African Union mission in Sudan force commander, then I became the first African Union United Nations Hybrid Operations in Darfur called UNAMIDS. I did that job for two years plus. Then I left and went to UN headquarters working for three months on lesson learned. From there I came back and retired in December 2009 from the Armed Forces of Nigeria. Since then I have had little things here and there and but the major thing in 2010, I spent most of the time attending the United Nations, some AU, and a little ECOWAS senior leaders mission training. That is training those who will go to senior leadership position in United Nations or African Union or ECOWAS leadership position in peace keeping or peace building or peace making.
Realnews: And you will soon be going back on another UN mission
Agwai: Yes. Since then I have had things to do when the UN or the AU called me to lead their delegation to one thing or the other. Very soon, hopefully, in the next 10 days I will be in New York for a UN mission in Abiye, that is, the disputed area between South Sudan and Sudan.
Realnews: What will you be doing there?
Agwai: We will be assessing the terms of reference and concept of the operation, what has been done; has the overall aim of the UN been achieved and how can they stabilise that area to make sure though it is a disputed area, that lives and the security of people living there are normal until the dispute is finally settled.
Realnews: Do you think the problem there can easily be settled just like that?
Agwai: If it would have been easy, then they would have settled it since because you know that South Sudan was created from Sudan and it’s been more than five years now.
Realnews: But they are still fighting there.
Agwai: That is why it should not be as easy as we think it will be. It will be problematic.
Realnews: What I mean is will the problem ever be solved.
Agwai: That is why I said that it will be problematic to solve it. It may be long. It may be solved but not immediately. For example, remember Kashmir between India and Pakinstan, since 1948 it has not been resolved up to date. Look at Golan Height between Israel and Syria, it has not been resolved. So, it is going to take some time. What I believe is important is that the people who are caught in that, can they continue their normal life before the problem is resolved.
Realnews: You alluded to the cause of the Dafur problem – the search for grazing land. Can you talk about it and relate it to what is happening in our country now between farmers and herders?
Agwai: If you read literature you will find so many people alluding to the fact that the challenge in Darfur is between the Arabs who are nomads there and the natives who are the farmers. But the real big thing that brought it was the drought. The drought forced the herdsmen to move more south to get water for their cattle and for themselves. And the farmers need the same land to grow their crops for their livelihood and continue their normal life. So for competition of resources, there is now this challenge that now created what happened in Darfur. I want to say that it will be over simplifying it to say that that was the only problem. There are other people who have their grievances and there are opportunists in everything you find and if it is not properly resolved, the opportunists will see a window to insert their interest. If it is not properly handled, it will expand to the level that it happened in Dafur.
So, coming to Nigeria, that is also my fear that if this thing is not properly handled, we would wake up one day to find out that these herdsmen issues have torn us and blow this country to pieces. For example, we must know the real cause of this and my feeling is that we do not approach our problem strategically because if we have some of these things we would have found, if not a lasting solution, but a better solution to them. We know that our population will grow and will continue to grow especially when some of us take pride in the number of children we have. That shows a sign of wealth, a sign of being important. If you have that at the background then you will know that the population is going to increase to a level we will not be able to contain it. At independence we were less than 40 million. Today just 60 years down the line, we have moved from 40 to over 180 million so if you look at population increase of over 140 million in sixty years, in another 60 years if we are not careful what will happen? So, that is why I said that it is important that we start looking at our culture, and then start thinking strategically. The same thing the herdsmen want to multiply their cattle because it is their tradition, it is their way of life and a source of their living. Also, they are of economic benefit to Nigeria because they are contributing to the economy and they are also helping in food security just like the farmers are helping in food security. So it is important that as a country, we look at these things and see how we can solve them.
What makes our case different and needs urgent solution and we have to be careful because it is so delicate because the herdsmen happen to belong to one ethnic group and most of the farmers are the aborigenes of this area that they are farming. So an ethnic dimension has been created into the problem. Then most of the herders are Fulanis. The farmers, the aborigenes, most of them for want of words are pagans or Christians. So you see another dimension – religion has been created. So if we do not handle it properly, the ethnic or religious issue will create an ethno-religious conflict that could blow out of proportion that this country will not be able to contain.
Realnews: Do you think the present government is not handling the situation very well?
Agwai: They are trying their best. But there is a lot of room for improvement because one of the things I will say outright is that even if the government is trying she is not letting the people know what she is doing. So you end up saying she is doing nothing. It is not enough to say every time that they will arrest the perpetrators and see that they are duly tried and sanctioned according to our laws. It is important for the people to know what has happened. If there is a crisis today let’s say in Adamawa and government has done something, both the state and federal should let the people know so there will not be the feeling that government has done nothing.
Realnews: Does it worry you as a military man that people are alleging that the military is complicit in the crisis; that military helicopters are seen dropping weapons for the armed militia or the herders? Can this happen in Nigeria?
Agwai: Remember what I said about the case of Dafur that there were opportunists who saw a window and capitalise on it. I have not seen a direct evidence and unfortunately I am now a common Nigerian citizen and have no access to these things so I cannot say. But I believe and I am convinced that the Nigerian military will never do that. Remember that there are a lot of warlords in Nigeria and in other parts of the world. Remember that Boko Haram told us that they are the ISIS of West Africa. So that means they have some connection and we know and Boko Haram has testified and people have testified that they are in contact with the rebel group in Mali and Somalia. So they are also becoming an international body not only within the bothers of Nigeria. So I won’t be surprised if in their bid also for survival tactics tried to paint their helicopters in the colour of Nigerian military. I won’t say it is impossible in the modern world we are in. But I do not believe that our military will do that.
Realnews: You have worked with United Nations. Usually when there are cases of killings or bloodbath in a country the UN issues a statement. How come that the UN has not issued a statement on the bloodbath going on in Nigeria as a result of herders/farmers crisis. There is also an allegation that there is an international dimension to what is happening in the country apparently because of the prediction that Nigeria would break up in 2015. Could it be some people want to use the herdsmen problem to tear Nigeria apart?
Agwai: I would not say no to that your hypothesis. But what I am going to say categorically is that if not properly handled we will give people with other agenda, other interest an opportunity to achieve their agenda and interest. I believe that collectively the government and people of Nigeria and I believe it will never happen in my life that they are going to break. If we do not want it to happen then we must take care and nip this thing in the bud before it becomes a bigger threat that will tear us into pieces. As you said there are two major trends – the religious dimension and the ethnic dimension. You can take care of the ethnic but the religious aspect you can’t because there is no state in Nigeria that does not have both the two major religion – the Christian and the Muslim. So if you can contain the ethic part you cannot contain the religious part. And if you are majority in one of the states, you are minority in another state. So this is the danger that I see and we must put all hands on deck and address it squarely. Now the danger and the more difficult part is that if we don’t do something now, we are slowly getting into election year. And you will now see every political party will now want to use what they will use to now catch and get votes. This thing will be blown out of proportion. If it is a humanitarian helicopter using the case you brought; if the helicopter landed there I will say that they have brought arms and ammunition to play on the sentiment of people to get support. We must find a way of unifying the majority of Nigerians to see the danger of this to make sure that we find an urgent solution.
Realnews: Government is proposing cattle colonies. A lot of states have objected to it that they don’t want any colony which brings back the memory of colonisation in minds of people. Do think such a policy of government can work?
Agwai: I have said elsewhere and I am going to say it again, passing laws and rules and regulation; signing laws is one thing. Getting the people to buy in and adhere to them is the most important thing. And what you can do is that there is need for coordination again, all hands on deck, coordinating. The use of the word colony I will say a little bit about it. I got involved in a national conference on transformation of livestock in Nigeria. I even chaired one of the session. If we are using scientific and international words of colony but unfortunately people do not understand the sensitivity. And instead of sitting down to face the problem and ask ourselves question – how is it applicable in Nigeria? All they are saying is something leading to ranching. But now because they have mentioned the name colony you see what it has done. All the beautiful part of that programme and that conference was attended by over 700 scholars, politicians etc. and now that is virtually being thrown away because of one word because in talking they did not visualise what the word colony connotes and what will be the meaning to people. Now if you check government is not using it and I am sure nobody in government will use that word. But if they have done what I have said coordinating, sifting out the thing before we disseminate information to the people. But open grazing is not the solution to the problem.
Realnews: What is your assessment of the current government of President Muhammadu Buhari and the letter by former President Olusegun Obasanjo?
Agwai: Again I will hate to be drawn into that because it is not my strong point. Politics is not my area. My strong point is looking at overall issue of national security, well-being of the people and what will happen. I agree, you are right, that any action or any wrong action or inaction can create security challenges. But I also will not be able to talk much on this because I do not have all the facts. I have really not followed the political aspects of leadership in Nigeria. Rather what I have concentrated my effort is on the defence part of national security. The details I will not be able to give you but I do not want to venture into an area I will be ambushed tomorrow.
Realnews: What do you make of the face-off between the Executive and the Legislative arm of government? Don’t you think it has security implication?
Agwai: It does. Definitely, that has a security implication and the worst part the ruling party that produced the president has also produced the majority in the legislative arm of government. So when they cannot see eye to eye and there is a face off, there is something fundamentally wrong. And I feel the party should get all the players together. And the party and government should sit down and come up with one approach and with one voice on what they are doing. It is really a big challenge if you find two different things happening and if you hear one thing happening and you hear different voices. I agree that there is no way all APC legislators and the executive will agree on everything. But at the end there will be a consensus and a compromise that every Nigerians will know that at the end that this is what the party stands for and it is their final decision. So it could really create a national security problem especially when the party in government, the party in majority in the legislative arm of government has discordance within itself. .
Realnews: Are you worried about what is happening among the security agencies of government. They are not in harmony. You see the Department of State Security, DSS, writing very acrimonious letter to the Senate against the confirmation of the Ibrahim Magu, acting Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, EFCC, chairman and also, the EFCC officials and that of the National Intelligence Agency fighting in the streets openly.
Agwai: You see, this is not only a problem in Nigeria. It is a problem worldwide. But I think that we can narrow that problem. Remember what led to America creating the homeland security. That was one on the things – the competition and the rivalry between the agencies that are in charge of security. From my own experience, sometimes we overdramatise and overplay this thing. Because everybody wants to be seen that he or she has the president’s or the executive’s ear so a problem happens in a little village, you have the security agencies there instead of them to concentrate and ask themselves how to solve this problem? No. Everybody wants to fire a report to the top at the headquarters and by the time the report reaches the headquarters maybe the boss is not there that day so you will wait for the result. But situation on ground is so dynamic and changes so fast. This again, I talk of coordination. That is what I mean that we must have enough coordination that at the end of the day somebody coordinates all these efforts and somebody should be the person telling us all the details. Every person is encouraged to participate.
Realnews: This has not happened before in the history of the country where you have different arms of the security agencies fighting openly. Has it happened before?
Agwai: (Laughs) I think this is not the first. I will be honest with you. Even when I was the chief of Army Staff, there was a clash here in Lagos between the Police and the Army.
Realnews: The Police and the Army are always fighting but not the other arms of security – The DSS, NIA or EFCC
Agwai: But they are also security. Right. What are the lessons learnt? What are the best practices? What do we need to do? What is the collective responsibility of everybody because as I have always said that we should put the interest of this country before our own personal interest because all of us will go. I was telling people when I was in service that my name is the last now in the chronology of the service chiefs but you come in another 20 years you will see so many people. So you can’t be the first and the last. You can’t solve all the problems. It is a relay and not a race. So it is us playing our part and most importantly, it is not who helped to do this but the most important thing is it was done and you can take pride that during my time I remained able to achieve this for the betterment of this country not that my ego is being affected so I must show him or her that I am this. And also in a lighter note at the airport, one lady was announcing and one man came and said everybody should do this and the man said, do you know who I am. And so the lady went to the public address system and said ‘ladies and gentlemen can somebody come and help me; there is somebody here who does not know who he is’ (Laughter). But you know what he meant by that statement. But you see how she has reduced him to nothing. So it is not who we are but what we have contributed when we were somebody into developing and elevating the lives of our people.
Realnews: Does this go to say that we are elevating the individual instead of building institutions?
Agwai: That is the biggest challenge. We have always done much on individual instead of institution. We have very strong individuals and when they sneeze the whole place catches cold. They cannot be sneezing every day. They have to leave the stage. So, what I believe is an issue of leadership and I believe in Maxwell theory that everything begins and ends with leadership.
Realnews: What do you think of President Muhammadu Buhari’s style of leadership?
Agwai: I have been involved in so much training and lecturing and causing and participating in programme of leadership. And one interesting thing I found and till the end of the day you don’t know. Google leader or leadership and you see how many response you will have. Google definition of leadership and you will see how many response you will have. So, all of us have our styles, have what it is. And the most important thing is that the leader leads and at the end of its leadership, or during his stewardship people will show whether they accept that type of leadership or not. That is the most important thing. That is why there is not lead style of leadership. There are so many and I believe that leadership is an art not a science. So you cannot say two plus two is four. But as an art you can do so many things that make a leader successful. Some of them are charismatic leaders but the most important thing is that if you as a person select a particular pattern of leadership, you must make sure that that pattern will make you achieve the goal you set for yourself as a leader and you should be flexible enough to understand at any point that this is not going right and you adopt a adopt something different so that you are able to reach where you want to go.
Realnews: Do you think the call for restructuring the country is necessary?
Agwai: You ask yourself, why do we always call for restructuring? I grew up in this country with three regions. I knew in my school days, talking of three regions, four regions, then 12 states and it became 19 states. Then it went to 24 states and now we are in 36 states. So the question is for us Nigerians to be honest to ourselves: what has gone wrong. If you look at chapter two of our Constitution. I honestly believe that if we can achieve 60 percent of what we set for ourselves in that Constitution. What breeds all these stories, some people have seen the possibilities that if we have 50 so many states I will be lucky to be a governor in one of the states. So some people look at it form that angle, oh I may have a major part to play. But another thing you have to look at, may be there has been a lot of injustice. May be people have been actually marginalised. Maybe people’s voices have not been heard. So if we create an avenue where people’s voices are heard why is it the people that drive the leadership and not the other way round? Let me give you an example – why is it that we are so much bothering ourselves about who wants to become the president of Nigeria? Why? And then for governors? And when it comes to the local government how much are we bothered? But that is the grassroots.
Realnews: Even when there is election at the local government the party in power clears everything
Agwai: That shows you there is something wrong with the democracy we are practicing. Of course, it is the people that vote. If people come out to vote and have voted a president, governor and members of the legislative arm of government, and then the next election the part that have the governor in power sweeps all the local government election? Is there something wrong? The next poser I want to give you – Is that there are governors that have popular votes but there are areas in their states that they can’t go. There are no go areas in their states, what is wrong? There must be something wrong. So these are the questions. There must be fairness, there must be credibility in the system. To make democracy grow and mature there must be credibility, honesty and fairness. Because when you have a free but not fair election, then you have problem.
Realnews: The state of the economy, is it where it should be?
Agwai: Again, the economy is not my strong area. But what I know is that if your economy is strong, there will be more jobs, your middle class will grow. But when you have young people who have finished study for years and have gone round the whole country looking for jobs and they can’t get it. When you have prices of things skyrocketing that an average person cannot afford, them I believe as a layman that there is something wrong with the economy.
Realnews: Do have any other information you would like to give on all we have discussed.
Agwai: Let me say in the area I know best – the security and defence sector, we have to have not only rules and laws and regulation but we have to properly train and have proper command and control of those that we supervise. We must have re-training and retraining to catch up with the development of what is happening and above all we must instill discipline and loyalty to our subordinates. And there is a difference between a leader and a boss. If you go bossing people you may not get what you want. You are instilling fear. But if you go leading people they will follow you especially if they buy into the vision you have, they will follow you and achieve it. Then the important thing is that the security component should see themselves as part of a human body. We have just one tiny little finger on our hand and until the day that tiny finger is injured and something happens you will know the importance of that finger. So, all of them are important. None is superior to the other. If they are not important government would not have created them and put money into them. All of them are important and compliments one another. As for the politicians, it is a game I don’t know much. But I believe that if the political party is able to form the government and have majority in the parliament they should be able to get their act together and give the nation a purposeful direction. For the executive and the legislative arm of government, the system needs check and balances. It is not who is superior or I will show you my power. They are all elected for the benefit and progress of this country. So they are only there to act as checks and balances, not for who is superior or inferior that is taking us to where we are.
As a nation, we are blessed and it is not by accident that the highest concentration of black people on earth is in this country. We have to get our acts together and show that leadership. And that leadership can only be done if we are united; if we have a common vision and that vision we can get by instilling it and training our young people to have that. I have not seen this. We are training our young people to show differences. You are different from me. I am different from you but when God almighty brings rain, it has never selected that this is the group I want to give rain and this will not get rain today or this will have sunshine and this will remain in darkness. No. So we have to look at those visionary things that we have that can galvanise us and pull us together as a united people to take us to the promised land where we want to be.
Realnews: May I use this opportunity to ask you what is happening in Southern Kaduna where you are from? A lot of killings happened there recently.
Agwai: I am a Nigerian who happens to be born from South Kaduna. So I look at the whole thing in the big not the narrower picture. Like I told you there have been killings and there have been so many allegations. I learnt that the government has set up a peace commission or an organisation for peace building. I had recommended that to the state at one point. I hope that will work properly. If it does and can tap at grassroots we would reduce some of the challenges in Southern Kaduna. If you are working at the top there is nothing that can convince people at the grassroots. And you will find this revolving door, this people will kill today and tomorrow there is reprisal. So it has to be a strategic approach looking at the big picture and implement it from the bottom up.
– Mar. 4, 2018 @ 4:00 GMT |
Tags: Herdsmen Issue will Blow Nigeria to Pieces if Not Properly Handled – Gen. Agwai
