Politics

Prof Anya x-rays Nigeria’s economy, worsening security challenges & concludes the nation is at war

PROF. Anya O. Anya, octogenarian and former director general of the Nigerian Economic Summit Group and an elder statesman. In this exclusive interview with Realnews, Prof. Anya discussed the State of the Nation. And Unfortunately, most of the challenges confronting the nation in 2020 have not been tackled successfully, especially, the issues of rising insecurity across the country, poor performance of the economy with rising inflation, youth unemployment and the growing appetite for borrowing and its impact on economy, insecurity in the south east and the chances of the South East producing the president in 2023 among others.

The responses are as incisive as ever and in his usual manner, Prof Anya posed lots of food for thought on the need to look for a presidential candidate who is literate in economics to repair the broken sector as well as a candidate with the requisite knowledge and experience to occupy such office, which he believes abound in the South East if the zone is given the opportunity to have shot at the office.  In this exclusive interview conducted by Maureen Chigbo, editor, Realnews, Anthony Isibor, reporter and Chika Ejenike, a student intern with Realnews, Prof. Anya provides solutions to Nigeria’s economic and socio-political challenges plaguing the nation. It is a must read. Excerpts  

Realnews: Last week, there was a speech you made, and you said that some people would consider it an epistle from hell, why do you think it is so given what is happening in the country and that you are actually speaking truth to power.

Anya: The reason is simple. Nigeria as we speak is at war, but Nigeria is also in denial. There is nowhere in the world that you have so many people killed each day either by bandits, insurrectionists, or kidnappers or whatever, and you think the society is normal, no way!       

So we are at war, the difference is simply that we are pretending that we don’t know we are at war. 

Realnews: And this war is not like the conventional war we fought before, like the 3-year Biafran war. So what makes this war so exceptional that even the citizens are not all that aware that a war is being fought?

Anya: And that’s what makes it dangerous. You see, you have the army, you have the police and they are all now in full battle gear. You are dealing with not another army, you are dealing with non-state actors, people, who are not organised and should not be near government, are not even in government, so they are fighting for their own purposes, and what makes it worst is the fact that from what we are now hearing, many of these people are from outside of Nigeria, so, it’s not an internal war, it’s in fact an external war.

You know the man, ‘I think Boraje’, from Kwara state, a one-time acting chairman of the PDP, and he was the one who led the PDP people to cross over to join the APC (if you remember). In a recent interview, he said that they had brought in at first 20,000 and later on 40,000 people from outside Nigeria, and they came to deal with any eventuality after the election. He implied that the APC did not expect to win and so the implication is that they brought them in. Armed people of that magnitude, then you are going to declare war literarily and make the place ungovernable. Well, unfortunately, according to what he said also, it turns out that at the end, the politicians, who brought them in and abandoned them. So they have to fend for themselves, and in fending for themselves, they found this was a lucrative country where there was no order and you can do what you please, and they discovered ransom. And that’s why we are where we are.

Realnews: If we go by what Boraje said, El Rufa’i was one of those leaders of the PDP that Boraje led to APC, so El Rufa’i must be in the know of these people who were brought into the country to cause chaos.

Anya: Remember there was a time he even said he gave them money. In other words, he has been involved in negotiation with them, but obviously not at the national level, but at the level of his state. Yes, I expect that El Rufa’i knows about this.

Realnews: So he must be playing to the gallery now that he is talking of going to bring mercenaries to come and fight to secure his state?

Anya: I don’t think he is playing to the gallery, the situation is very confused. And don’t forget that if a Nigerian man in any authority encourages non Nigerians to create mayhem in Nigeria, it is a treasonable offense so, it is not something you admit to easily. And that is why if you look at the way this has been handled by the present government, they talk tough and nothing happens because there is ambivalence. Ambivalence because these were their one time friends now turned enemies and certainly gone beyond what they expected. But there must be an answer, and the answer is to recognise that to get ourselves out of here, we are no longer going to say who did that and who did not do that in the past. We just have to face the danger that we are in and return peace and reasonable order into our country, and it involves all of us, and that is why I say we are at war. So we must mobilize for that.

Realnews: Who are we mobilizing, the army, the citizens, or the leadership?

Anya: All of the above. But the most important thing is that if you are going to mobilize to meet force with force, then your first resource will be the army of retired military men from all over the country. There are many generals we retired over the last 20 years and you start from them.

If you can organize the retired military men in all the zones of Nigeria, you have a sizeable army of command sector, then, the chief of defense staff can now coordinate that. Otherwise, pretending that the military as it is now can return us to stability, well we still have time. It may go from bad to worse.

However, the reason if you brought in the retired military men and organize them, is that the quality of military decision making, strategic planning will increase because you have a pool of very experienced people, some of whom have even taken part in the war. You have that resource.

Realnews: When you are talking about mobilizing the retired military, there is a school of thought that believes that the current security architecture of the military is compromised, is that why you are asking for recruiting the retired military?

Anya: It is implied in what Boraje said. It means things are not normal in the relationship between the security services.

Realnews: So, do you think that the serving generals will actually welcome retired generals to come?

Anya: Well, if we are in a national emergency, we can’t afford the privilege of choosing who and who you window in. That is when the President as the Commander-in-Chief will use his powers to organize. Actually, people will tell you that military men don’t retire, when they retire, they are in reserve. So they can still be called upon to give national service when they have to. We must now learn that national interest is the only guarding factor. My convenience, my personal interest does not count. And that is why we are in the mess because the politicians who are the ones who give the instructions on governance now, do not even realize that we are in this kind of danger that I am talking about.

They are still dancing, preparing for elections, but as Pastor Enoch Adeboye said recently, ‘you have to be a brave man to be confident that there will be an election in 2023’, if we go the way we are going, unless we stop now and start reorganizing.

Realnews: Talking of Adeboye, some people have criticized that speech. Do you think it was germane, should he have made that statement that he is not very sure if elections will hold in 2023?

Anya: But he has made it.

Realnews: Yes.

Anya: If you think he has no basis for making it, then express your own opinion; say what you think and the basis on which you think so.

The truth of the matter is that when you have an experienced person like Adeboye, you don’t know all, the sources of his information, not to talk about those of them who believe they talk with God.

So, like he said, he has not yet and emphasized the yet. He has not yet gotten the instructions from God, but he is an intelligent enough man, and so he judges from what is around and he sees the danger.

Realnews: Is it not a question of double speak, giving that not quite long ago, the same Adeboye was setting up a political desk to mobilize all Redeemed people…

Anya: cuts in …

Anya: Maureen, we can’t at this point in time afford the luxury of this debate of what he said or what he didn’t say. We are in danger and whoever is… I am sure you followed the Muslim cleric who lost his job. The truth of the matter is that people are underplaying the bad situation that we are in and as it was said in the lecture I gave recently…

Anya: Laughs…

As Olusegun Obasanjo has said, half of the people offering themselves to become the president today should be in jail if the EFCC and the ICPC had done their work. Their dossiers are complete, but put that aside, the truth of the matter is that where we are now, everything should be on governance but particularly economics. This country should be handled by those who are literate in economics. Because the problem we have right now; the security situation is because of the economic situation. The day you take a handle and start reengineering the economy, unemployment will reduce, and with it youthful restiveness will reduce, and then you can now start planning properly on how to return us to a more stable governance system.

So there are two things we have to think of right now. One is that we have to stabilize the security situation. Two is that we have to look for people who are economic literates, because of where we are economically. 

Do you realize how much we owe now, in-fact it is frightening… there are two things that are frightening about the economy now, that came out in the last one month.

First is that all the revenue that come to government now, 98% goes to paying the interest on loans. Not paying the debts, just to service it takes 98% of all the revenue. This is why we are in a binge; in a borrowing binge. Because what it means is that by the time you finish, you have no money to pay salaries, you borrow for that, you have no money to run the various services, infrastructure and so on, so you borrow for that, you have no money to do all the things that government should do, you borrow for that. If that happens to me as an individual, people will recognize that I am bankrupt.

When a state is bankrupt, we play around with it, we don’t say its bankrupt, but that is where we are now.

Realnews: You have painted a very gloomy picture of the security situation and have now moved to the economy. But the economy and the security situation in the country is intricately interwoven. How much of a deep mess has the security situation of the country plunged the economy of the country?

Anya: The economy was already heading for difficult times because you know under Jonathan, there was a time the GDP growth rate had reached 8%. If you read the lecture I gave, the take-off point of most economy is 7.5% sustained, although I made the point, that’s not sufficient for Nigeria because our population is growing at 4%. So you have to factor that in. When you factor that, it means Nigeria should be growing at 11% minimum. That is when you can in a decade turn your economy around, and you can start on the path of fast pace development. We are nowhere near that.

Under this government, growth rate has varied between 2%, when it jumps up to 3% we celebrate. Compare it to where it ought to be.  So we do not only have security emergency, we have also an economic emergency.

Realnews: That is a very serious matter.

If you are talking about the security situation, it was also bad in 2014, 2013, from 2011, 2012, if you remember, bombs were just exploding in Abuja. We had the bombing of the UN headquarters, we also had the Nyanya market bombing, we also had suicide bombers exploding here and there, we have not have that kind of case. What is really the difference between what we had back then during Jonathan with what we have right now?

Anya: Go back to your records, you will find that what you had was an episodic situation. Occasionally this will happen, and occasionally, that will happen. If you have a serious government, they can take charge. But we now have where everything is happening everywhere on a daily basis. So you do not have the place you can stand on to stabilize and from there expand. That is the difference.

Realnews: So now, it’s all over the country

Anya: Exactly.

Realnews: Every part of the country is affected?

Anya: Yes.

Realnews: So it is no longer localized in the northern part of the country?

Anya: No. But the north is worst, because the north actually cannot solve the problem the north has now without my help, and the help of other parts of Nigerians. And that is why people talk about that Nigeria has never been in this kind of situation before, they are right.

I was 85 years in January, I have never seen this country as it is difficult to predict what will happen, and we have never been in this kind of situation.

Realnews: Before we leave comparing between what happened in Jonathan’s time and what is happening now, because people also had fears if the 2015 elections would hold. And actually at a point in time, the elections had to be postponed because of security situation in the north.

Is the situation different?

Anya: Do you live in this country, do you follow the daily news, and you think there is comparison between now and 5 years ago, do you really think there is a comparison? Take Zamfara, Kebbi, to a certain extent Niger, not to talk about Borno that we are used to. 

People who come and go from those areas; they have been at war; they have been at war and are still at war. Most of the important people, including Sokoto, they don’t live in their states any longer, they operate from Abuja. But now, which is what the governor of Niger state was drawing attention to. What is happening now is that Abuja itself could easily be threatened. That is what the governor of Niger state said. Before it was far away, now it is within two hours drive into Abuja.

What has happened with the train bombing is a completely new dimension, up till the day it happened, would anybody have believed if he was told that it could happen.

As a friend of mine puts it, it is as if in Nigeria we are going through a period in which we are bewitched. People don’t talk straight now, even reasonable, intelligent people. When you now want to discuss Nigeria, they switch off. We don’t want to be disturbed by the bad news. Unfortunately, nobody is going to come from anywhere to solve the problem for us here. We have to find the answer here, and we start by recognizing that each of us has a part to play. So let us leave the blame game first, and ask what do we do now? 

Realnews: So what do we do now?

Anya: First, we must get the best economics minds in the country together, and face the situation, and draw shot term plans; let’s say one, two, three, by the time you have carried out those, you would have stabilized the place, then you can go on a longer term plan. 

This is not the time to talk about the details, but if you accept that this is what needs to be done, then we can start it. Then governance system itself, people have been shouting about restructure, the truth of the matter is that where we are now, the federal government alone is incapable of handling; whether it is the economic problem, or the security problem. Therefore there must be devolution of authority to the lower levels to the zonal level, and perhaps to the state level, each one trying to contend with its own. Right now everybody, including the states are looking up to the federal government, they expect the federal police to come, the army to come, and so on.

There are things that can be done in each locality, and the problems are not the same in each locality. Therefore you need to get to the point where each state takes charge of his environment, and the problem, how it can stabilize itself. Then the coordination is at the zonal and the national level. 

Unless you have that kind of devolution of authority, you don’t want to get constitutional, that’s why I am using the devolution of authority. There are things that the president can do by executive order, and you give more responsibility to the states. You create new forum of consolidation at the zonal level. There are only six zones, it approximates to the regions, but you will be driving the country in manageable slices.

Realnews: You know, when we were looking at the situation in the country, we had a rare of hope, when the president signed the electoral bill. Does it give any hope that the situation in the country could change for the better in the future, what do you think?

Anya: Well, he has signed the bill, but you can also see what happened. Political interest starts trying to change what it ought to be between those who are elected in the National Assembly and those who are hoping to either become senators and so on, but who are presently ministers and so on. Where we are, that kind of division was not necessary and each group was trying to use it to cover its own particular interest. The important thing is what is best for Nigeria at this time, and we do it. Personal interest will have to wait. What it means for example, is to take all the fears about this, lets face it, political parties have not done well. What we expected them to do, they have not done. 

That’s why whether it is APC or PDP, there is so much chaos and uncertainty on what to do next. But the truth of the matter is that the politicians are putting their personal interest ahead of the national interest. I am saying that it is time we reversed the order. The national interest must take priority now until we get a country. 

Where we are now, I don’t think we have a country. I made these comment years ago and Obasanjo quoted it in his letter to President Muhammadu Buhari. When you look at the way things are going, there is no point pretending, we are just managing to give the semblance of governance and so on.

The truth of the matter is that in many ways, the country is on auto pilot. Things are running on its own, and that is why the bandits are running riot. Why are we running riot, because they thought that there will be more resistance. Each time they move forward, there is no resistance. So their own ambition has now grown, they think that they have the country to do whatever they please. But at least, if you stabilize… by calling in the whole military, and they can be pockets of resistance, organized resistance to start with, then perhaps, they themselves will start paying a high price for trying to occupy the country, and that is the point at which they decide whether to go back to where they came from, or to fight it out. When the country is properly organized, I don’t think non state actors can overcome.

Realnews: Ok… you keep gravitating back to this security and insecurity in the country. But the fact is that just yesterday, they said that they raided the house of the head of ISWAP and they captured it in the Sambisa forest with pictures in the social media of what the army has done. Does that count for something?

Anya: Maureen, I think you are not getting the message. The message is that most Nigerians don’t believe what the government tells us, the government agencies. I am sure you have heard people making a joke out of Lai Mohammed, making a joke out of his name. What does that tell you, the government has to regain the confidence of the governed.

In fact, there are two major problems that Nigeria has to face if it must remain relevant and run in peace. The gap between the ruler and the ruled is that wide. In times past, when Okpara, Awolowo, and Ahmadu Bello were in charge, they were in touch with their people and the people recognised their leaders.  As it was in the east for example, before any major initiative took place, Okpara will go back to the village level to tell them what the government wants to do, to relate with them what needs to be done, it is only when that consultation of the people governed is complete that the government now goes to do what needed to be done. 

Which was why during the seven years that Okpara was there, Eastern Nigeria came out from the three regions to be one of the fastest growing economies in the world. I didn’t say in Africa, in the world. The data are there in the Mechigan State University, because you don’t govern in the abstract, you govern people, and their interest. And when you even talk about the economy, the government is in charge of macro economy, but that is not where wealth is created, that’s not where employment is created. Wealth and employment are created at the micro economic level, and individual initiative is what creates wealth. Government is only going to say, ok, what do I do so that this wealth they are creating can be even easy. The government is not doing that, and that is why I talk about economic literates and economic illiterates running the country.

Realnews:Yes, you know, people are always saying… I understand that people are kind of…

Anya:cuts in…

I said two problems, that’s one.

Realnews: Okay

Anya: The other one is the gap between the youths and the rest of the society. They have now their gender, they don’t believe anybody. And that’s why they’re doing the things they see are their priorities, which is also leading to cultism to the drug menace and so on because the people don’t trust their leaders. The youths don’t trust the elites. So those two problems are the problems we have to face in the next five years.

Realnews:So even if a new government comes it will have to deal with that, right?

Anya: But haven’t you even seen what is happening? Good though. Buhari is taking the easy way out. Any problem, kick it down the road let it be somebody else’s. That’s what he did with the subsidy or no subsidy. He suddenly said… they told us when it was going to change and then suddenly they said it was not going the happen and it’s… the subsidy thing is the greatest scam in the history of this country because we were just busy enriching individual. Faceless individuals because nobody even knows who are the people who are benefiting and the money runs in billions of dollars

Realnews: How can the government not know those are benefiting? Are you sure they don’t know those who are benefiting or are we pretending about the fact that we don’t know those who are benefiting from the subsidy scam?

Anya: I’m sure they know, but I am not in a position to know. That’s why they are in government and I am not.

Realnews: So probably those in government are the beneficiaries; that’s why they don’t want to point out those who are benefiting.

Anya: Yeah. You know from the ratings with Transparency International with World Bank Council you will find that on every parameter, we’ve gone down. If you take Transparency, interpret it to Transparency International’s report, what they are saying is that the government we have now in place is the most corrupt that Nigeria has ever known despite the issue of corruption, Anti-corruption and the rest of it. It’s easier to give money and to take money under present circumstances. That’s what the data is suggesting.

Realnews: Yeah. Let’s get back to the electoral bill that was signed, is there something good about it? Can you tell us?

Anya: Yeah, the good thing is this, first is they’re agreeing to electronic, to technology coming into play because until technology takes responsibility of certain things out of the hand of human beings then you know certain things were incorrigible, they are things that can’t change. Fortunately with technology you take the responsibility out of the hand of individuals whether in NEC or whatever, on the security services. That’s one and it is good that has happened.

Two, argument of whether you should resign 30 days to… I don’t think if there was still morality because that’s also the thing that has happened in the country. You know, our moral gauge has collapsed. People look you in the face and say things that they know is immoral because it’s promoting your interest rather than public interest. And yet they are pushing it. The people, who are ministers who have political interest want to be there serving and using the authority to benefit themselves in preparing themselves to come for the office. While the legislators of course didn’t want them to have that advantage; let it be a level playing field, let all of us come and compete on equal basis. That’s what this game has been about. And it is a good development too because you can’t tie the hands of one and free the other one to do whatever he pleases. So those are the 2 things, but there is a fundamental thing that hasn’t been done, we must have independent candidates.

The day we have independent candidates, we remove the tyranny of the political parties because right now it’s what they say and what they do that matters. When it gets to the court, the court will say this way, this way, you know, and with the way it is in the judiciary is now, you know, there was a time we were confident about the judiciary; nobody is that confident any longer. You can literally buy a court judgment. 

That’s what the indications are. But despite it, there are still honest people with integrity at the different levels of the court system, but what’s lacking is that their ability to sanction and punish people are still at infancy. When it becomes clear that if you do this, this is the consequence and people can be deterred and feared then things will change. The moral compass of Nigeria is now quite low and the judges live in the same society as you and me so you can’t expect them to be saints.

Realnews: Yes. When we are talking about the insecurity and the doubt whether the election will hold in 2023 or not as at this time last year we also had the same scenario playing out in Anambra where the people were saying that elections will not hold because of the level of insecurity there, but the election came and it was calm…

Anya: Yes, but the people that were emerging, the people that the people saw coming forward have been people like Prof Charles Soludo. Human beings watch their leaders and they either trust or distrust their leaders. So once they saw that people showing up, including one or 2 of the PDP candidates that they are people with integrity, people with sincerity are likely to come up, when you now said IPOB stop let’s have this election they listened, that was why you had this thing.

The important lesson to learn from that is that the quality of leadership is important. The day you have the right kind of people taking the right kind of decision, whoever it is, whether it’s the youths, whether it’s the governed, all will start saying you know, I didn’t know that can still happen in this country. That is an indication things are changing, confidence is returning. Government can go nowhere unless those who are governed have confidence in the integrity of the people governing them. Right now there is no such confidence.

  Realnews: So the quality of the candidates was one of the things that inspired confidence in the IPOB…

Anya: Exactly, yeah

Realnews: So if we move this line of thought to what is happening in Nigeria, if good candidates emerge in 2023, would that make the insecurity situation in the southeast calm down, not just southeast even in the other parts of the country?

Anya: Yeah. Obviously, the quality of human people, the quality of human beings is important, it will make the difference. That’s the difference between well-run societies, orderly societies, wealthy societies and the not-so-wealthy and the poor; quality of human beings…and it’s not as if Nigeria lacks quality people, even in the present race. In the lecture, although I didn’t want to make the much of it because I didn’t want the noise over it to drown what I had to say, the truth of the matter is that there are people in the race right now who can give the confidence and give Nigeria a new direction. But the system, the way the political parties are and the kind of value system that has united the political parties and the ordinary people. You see you mentioned Anambra, the indication that the people were gaining more confidence was the incidence where some woman told some of the candidates, “yes we are hungry, but this your money we won’t take.” Do you remember it happened?

Realnews: Yes it happened.

Anya: That is an indication that when you have quality leadership people have confidence in, they are prepared to sacrifice and forego. In Nigeria right now, among the candidates, there are some people like that.

Realnews: Who are these candidates, can we talk about them?

Anya: When you take Peter Obi for example, he has actually practiced what he preaches in governance and the difference was clear. All the money that he said he left, nobody doubted it, not even his successor has not said it didn’t happen, so at least it’s possible for government to be run without all the corruption. Then he was not profligate, he was thrifty with government fund the way he would have been with his own fund, which was why, you know, many times we met at the airport, I would go and sit in my business class each time, but the governor goes to sit in his economy class and he was consistent in that for the 8 years he was there, that tells you the quality of the character. 

Even if you look at the North, Mohammed Hayatu-deen I know because he was the Chairman of Nigerian Economic Summit Group when I was the Director General. He knows, he managed the Northern Nigerian Development Cooperation when he was in his 30s and he’s done other things successfully. The problem we have is that in Nigeria, those who have a track record of what they have done are pushed out by the political touts and charlatans.

Realnews: Hayatu-deen, that’s the Mohammed…

Anya: Mohammed. The… we say we are in emergency, if we are in emergency we go for our bests. There is no reason, for example why Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala couldn’t be the president of Nigeria now. There is no reason why Akinwumi Adesina, you know, from the African Development Bank cannot be, and I can name a lot more. Take Kingsley Moghalu for example, when he speaks you know he knows what he’s talking about, but the noise of the charlatans drowns everybody else. 

The day it becomes clear we are looking for quality leadership they are enough and the problems in Nigeria are not peculiar; they have been solved in other countries and it’s no longer rocket science. China that we are dealing with now and everybody is hailing, China went through its own dark days and that is why I am hopeful despite the picture we’ve painted, Nigeria is actually at the darkest period of the night that leads to the dawn. Despite all we are saying, the changes that will reshape Nigeria are already taking place.

Realnews: So what are these changes that will reshape Nigeria that are already taking place?

Anya: The youth, for example have shown in what they are doing with startups and you know, the technological companies and so on, that they have what it takes, they can compete with the rest of the world. What Peter Obi, for example, has built in terms of personal fortune. 

Take Dangote, which happened before our very eyes. Within 20 years, he’s done what he’s done, there are more Dangotes in this country right now, younger people who will even do it better and easier. And you…when you’re talking about human beings in leadership, when you take a man like…Ayim Pius Anyim, Ayim has been president of the senate, he’s been secretary to government, so he’s been at the top of the 2 levels of the 3 legs that run Nigeria. That experience cannot be for nothing. 

But when we were looking for presidents in the past we didn’t look for such people and you can go on and…I mean you can see even people that are already here now, they are people that can generate confidence.

Realnews: Yeah. Ok. What do you…

Anya: And look at Sam Ohuabunwa for example, Ohabunwa was also Chairman of the Nigerian Economic Summit. He actually led a management buyout of Pfizer in Nigeria and took over the company. He didn’t have the money, it’s the banks, but it is management that made it possible and he has not only NECA, manufacturers association, there is none which he has not been at the head. It’s the private sector that runs economy not government.

When you have somebody in governance that has that kind of linkage and insight in, you know, that kind of insight in the day-to-day management of the economy, there is hope.

Realnews: Yeah. In the paper you presented not long ago, what is it that you can tell us…what do you think about this push for Nigerian president of South-East extraction, should it be southeast or just Igbo?

Anya: With our best…we are talking about zones and those who would occupy those offices will pigeonhole them in their zones, so naturally, we are talking about the southeast extraction not Igbo. All the other five except the North-East have been president, but even on that, it looks to me as if there is a sea of change taking place; people came out in oppositions and so on. Reading the papers, I understand from one of the papers, I think it is from Realnews even, Atiku Abubakar has said he is prepared to stand down if it is zoned to the southeast.

Realnews: …for fairness and equity. Yes…

Anya: That’s the mindset of a statesman. He is prepared to sacrifice his personal interest in the national interest because he knows if the southeast takes charge of Nigeria by pulling together the peoples of Nigeria, they have the capacity to do it.

One, they are the people spread all over the country so there is no area of the country where they have…they are not in a position to improve. Second and more importantly, the area of the economy like I said earlier the micro economy is the area the southeasterners are strong in. They have illustrated here in Lagos where we live in, like I said in the paper, we were all given 20 pounds at the end of the civil war, but you know, in Anambra for example, at least 10 people have multiplied that 20 pounds to the point that they are billionaires. Those who can do such things need to do it for Nigeria at the national level and as I also said, there are good men all over the country, it’s leadership that can draw them all together and work in the national interest. In five years, you may not recognize the country, it’s doable.

Realnews:  I know it is doable, but it’s the way…there is a way, but with the way the country has really nosedived, do you think it is still possible?

Anya: If, all you need is the gesture that we’ve just talked about from Atiku, multiply it 3 to 4, 5 times, you see a sea of change; people will suddenly say “is that possible, and people will now become more receptive.

I was involved in the Abiola election and you know, up to a week before the election, it was still a press up, but within those last 2 weeks, it was as if it was a successive change; you talk to this one, people who had contrary views were now expressing positive views. This could happen this time. 

What Atiku has done could be multiplied and once it is accepted that in the national interest, let’s pay the debt that Nigeria owes and let’s harness all the talents that are available in Nigeria. Lagos, the east, the southeasterners have developed Lagos at the expense of southeast. That is good because the conditions, the environmental conditions for making money, you know, the people who ran southwest have allowed that to happen so it was more attractive to come and invest here and that’s why, you know, southeast people have invested so heavily. 

Now when you have a centre of development expanding, you now can transfer some of that wealth to other subsidiary centre of development, that’s what Nigeria needs. It’s easy to transfer what has happened in the southwest, the western corridor of Nigeria from Lagos down to Sokoto, you can do the same thing from Port-Harcourt down to Maiduguri, and you now find a country that is united at different levels where there is work for people and where people move freely, that is possible and that is where we should be going.

Realnews: Yes. Some people have also…a school of thought is advocating for a government of national unity…

Anya: I have said that…I have said that…

Realnews: How is that going to be?

Anya: …But you see the problem is if you say it, that way, politicians will once more take charge of it and shape it according to their own image. If you do the 2 things I say you should do, in terms of mobilizing retired officers to deal with the security situation, deploy some authorities to the zonal levels and so, by the time you finish doing that, you will now have a new crop of leaders coming up at the national level. And so long as national interest is the driving force, that’s the beginning of a national government, but unfortunately, if you ask the politicians to do it, they will mess it up. So that is why start from the least as things develop, it starts moving in that direction.

Realnews: Yeah. How is this national government going to be formed, that’s what I want to understand…when people are saying government of national unity, how is it going to be? Is it not still the politicians that will handle it?

Anya: …That’s what I’m saying. I am saying the politicians will mess it up and that’s why I am not pushing for it even though I have advocated for it in the past.

Realnews: Yes.

Anya: I prefer to talk about an inclusive government

Realnews: Okay

Anya: If you have an inclusive government that has the best from all the parties and all the best from all the zones, and are working together, that’s a national government, but it’s inclusive because every part of the country will see themselves represented in the governing body but that is why if you again go to that lecture, people who have transformed their societies are exceptionally gifted people, intelligent, charismatic and I give examples. 

Doing some of the things I’m saying is what will throw up people of that kind in Nigeria; when you will now find it easy for people to come and they are not talking about where you come from, but they are talking about what you’re doing and how they can help.

Realnews: Yeah. So we were looking at ASUU, you were once a lecturer, were things this way? When you were in the university, were you always, lecturers, going on strike? We are moving into the third month of the ASUU strike.

Anya: Well, let’s be fair, the kind of things happening in the university did not happen in my time, but the seeds of it were already being planted by the government. The central problem about this is that government, successive governments have sat down to negotiate and after the negotiation, they made promises and they don’t keep it. In all that I got, government has not been honorable, people in government have not shown integrity so the result is again the thing I mentioned earlier; lack of trust. There is nothing you can do when human beings do not trust the system. 

That is why even when the government will say we will do this, yes we’ve heard that before, but it is possible we have a new crop both in the university and in the government who recognize why things…why education is important in the kind of Nigeria we want to build, so the university becomes priority. Because, whether we like it or not, I am a retired professor not only…a professor that is known in Nigeria and outside Nigeria. 

My pension, which is a reflection of what I earned is not enough to pay for the diesel that we’re burning right now. My pension each year cannot buy the diesel, you know [laughs] if people tell you what professors now earn in comparison with other African countries, I’m not even talking about…you will be ashamed. 

So it’s a matter of priority. If you have a government that has its priorities right, when you ask people to make sacrifices, they are willing to make it because they see you that you’re making the sacrifices. We have leaders who are not prepared to make any sacrifice in the national interest, but they want other people to make the sacrifice while they grow fatter. That’s the problem.

Realnews: Well said. And then we were just thinking about something; if we are…if…it is only on the part of the leaders that they are not keeping to that agreement? Do you think ASUU is also not keeping to the terms given the quality of students they are producing now that it’s making it almost very difficult for employers of labor to have students they can employ without having to retrain them?

Anya: Well let me say…

Realnews: Are they also leaving up to expectations? I mean ASUU?

You know, people are always saying… I understand that people are kind of…

Anya:I said two problems, that’s one.

Realnews: Okay

Anya: The other one is the gap between the youths and the rest of the society. They have now their gender, they don’t believe anybody. And that’s why they’re doing the things they see are their priorities which is also leading to cultism to the drug menace and so on because the people don’t trust their leaders. The youths don’t trust the elites. So those two problems are the problems we have to face in the next five years.

Realnews:So even if a new government comes it will have to deal with that, right?

Anya: But haven’t you even seen what is happening? Good though Buhari is taking the easy way out. Any problem, kick it down the road let it be somebody else’s. That’s what he did with the subsidy or no subsidy. He suddenly said… they told us when it was going to change and then suddenly they said it was not going to happen and the subsidy thing is the greatest scam in the history of this country because we were just busy enriching individuals. Faceless individuals because nobody even knows who are the people who are benefiting and the money runs in billions of dollars

Realnews: How can the government not know those benefiting from it? Are you sure they don’t know those who are benefiting or are we pretending about the fact that we don’t know those who are benefiting from the subsidy scam?

Anya: I’m sure they know, but I am not in a position to know. That’s why they are in government and I am not.

Realnews: So probably those in government are beneficiaries; that’s why they don’t want to point out those who are benefiting.

Anya: Yeah. You know from the ratings with Transparency International with World Bank Council you will find that on every parameter, we’ve gone down. If you take Transparency interpret it to Transparency International’s report, what they are saying is that the government we have now in place is the most corrupt that Nigeria has ever known despite the issue of corruption, Anti-corruption and the rest of it. It’s easier to give money and to take money under present circumstances. That’s what the data is suggesting.

Realnews: Yeah. Let’s get back to the electoral bill that was signed, is there something good about it? Can you tell us?

Realnews: Yes. When we are talking about the insecurity and the doubt whether the election will hold in 2023 or not as at this time last year we also had the same scenario playing out in Anambra where the people were saying that elections will not hold because of the level of insecurity there, but the election came and it was calm…

Anya: Yes, but the people that were emerging the people that the people saw showing forward have been people like Soludo. Human beings watch their leaders and they either trust or distrust their leaders. So once they saw that people showing up including one or 2 of the PDP candidates that people with integrity, people with sincerity are likely to come up, when you now said IPOB stop let’s have this election they listened, that why you had this thing.

The important lesson to learn from that is that the quality of leadership is important. The day you have the right kind of people taking the right kind of decision, whoever it is, whether it’s the youths, whether it’s the governed, all will start saying you know, I didn’t know that can still happen in this country. That is an indication things are changing, confidence is returning. Government can go nowhere unless those who are governed have confidence in the integrity of the people governing them. Right now there is no such confidence.

Realnews: So the quality of the candidates was one of the things that inspired confidence in the IPOB…

Anya: Exactly, yeah

Realnews: So if we move this line of thought to what is happening in Nigeria, if good candidates emerge in 2023, would that have the insecurity situation in the southeast calm down, not just southeast even in the other parts of the country?

Anya: Yeah. Obviously, the quality of human people, the quality of human beings is important, the difference. That’s the difference between well-run societies, orderly societies, wealthy societies and the not-so-wealthy and the poor; quality of human beings…and it’s not as if Nigeria lacks quality people, even in the present race. 

In the lecture, although I didn’t want to make the much of it because I didn’t want the noise over it to drown what I had to say, the truth of the matter is that there are people in the race right now who can give the confidence and give Nigeria a new direction. But the system, the way the political parties are and the kind of value system that has united the political parties and the ordinary people. You see you mentioned Anambra, the indication that the people were gaining more confidence was the incidence where some woman told some of the candidates, “yes we are hungry but this your money we won’t take.” Do you remember it happened?

Realnews: Yes it happened.

Realnews: Yeah. In the paper you presented not long ago, what is your…can you tell us…what do you think about this push for Nigerian president of South-East extraction, should it be southeast or just Igbo?

Anya: With our best…we are talking about zones and those who would occupy those offices will pigeonhole them in their zones, so naturally, we are talking about the southeast extraction not Igbo. All the other 5 except the North-East have been president, but even on that, it looks to me as if there is a sea change taking place; people came out in oppositions and so on. Reading the papers, I understand from one of the papers, I think it is from Realnews, even Atiku has said he is prepared to stand down if it is zoned to the southeast…

Realnews: …for fairness and equity. Yes…

Anya: That’s the mindset of a statesman. He is prepared to sacrifice his personal interest in the national interest because he knows if the southeast takes charge of Nigeria by pulling together the peoples of Nigeria, they have the capacity to do it.

One, they are the people spread all over the country so there is no area of the country where they have…they are not in a position to improve. Second and more importantly, the area of the economy like I said earlier the micro economy is the area the southeasterners are strong in.

 They have illustrated here in Lagos where we live in, like I said in the paper, we were all given 20 pounds at the end of the war, but you know, in Anambra for example, at least 10 people have multiplied that 20 pounds to the point that they are billionaires. 

Those who can do such things need to do it for Nigeria at the national level and as I also said, there are good men all over the country, it’s leadership that can draw them all together and work in the national interest. In five years, you may not recognize the country, it’s doable. 

Realnews: [Laughs] I know it is doable but it’s the way…there is a way, but with the way the country has really nosedived, do you think…

Anya: If, all you need is the gesture that we’ve just talked about from Atiku, multiply it 3 to 4, 5 times, you see a sea change; people will suddenly say “is that possible, and people will now become more receptive. 

I was involved in the… in the…you know, in the…Abiola, I was actually…I was involved in the Abiola and you know, up to a week before the election, it was still a press up whether, but within those last 2 weeks, it’s as if it was a successive change; you talk to this one, people who said contrary they were now saying positively. This could happen this time. 

What Atiku has done could be multiplied and once it is accepted that the national interest, let’s pay the debt that Nigeria owes and let’s harness all the talents that are available in Nigeria. Lagos, the east, the southeasterners have developed Lagos at the expense of southeast. That is good because the conditions, the environmental conditions for making money, you know, the people who ran southwest have allowed that to happen so it was more attractive to come and invest here and that’s why, you know, southeast people have invested so heavily. 

Now when you have a center of development expanding you now can transfer some of that wealth to other subsidiary center of development, that’s what Nigeria need. It’s easy to transfer what has happened in the southwest, the western corridor of Nigeria from Lagos down to Sokoto, you can do the same thing from Port-Harcourt down to Maiduguri, and you now find a country that is united at different levels where there is work for people and where people move freely, that is possible and that is where we should be going.

Realnews: Yes. Some people have also…a school of thought is advocating for government of national unity…

Anya: I have said that…I have said that…

Realnews: …how is that going to be…

Anya: …But you see the problem is if you say it, that way, politicians will once more take charge of it and shape it according to their own image. If you do the 2 things I say you should do, in terms of mobilizing retired officers to deal with the security situation, devour some authorities to the zonal levels and so, by the time you finish doing that, you will now have a new crop leaders coming up at the national level. And so long as national interest is the driving force, that’s the beginning of a national government, but unfortunately, if you ask the politicians to do it, they will mess it up. So that is why start from the least as things develop, it starts moving in that direction.

Realnews: Yeah. How is this national government going to be formed, that’s what I want to understand…when people are saying government of national unity, how is it going to be? Is it not still the politicians that…

Anya: …that’s what I’m saying. I am saying the politicians will mess it up and that’s why I am not pushing for it even though I have advocated for it in the past.

Realnews: Yes.

Anya: I prefer to talk about an inclusive government

Realnews: okay

Anya: If you have an inclusive government that has the best from all the parties and all the best from all the zones, and are working together, that’s a national government, but it’s inclusive because every part of the country will see themselves represented in the governing body but that is why if you again go to that lecture, people who have transformed their societies are exceptionally gifted people, intelligent, charismatic and I give examples. 

Doing some of the things I’m saying is what will through up people of that kind in Nigeria; when you will now find it easy for people to come and they are not talking about where you come from but they are talking about what you’re doing and how they can help.

Realnews: Yeah. So we were looking at ASUU, you were once a lecturer, were things this way? When you were in the university, where you always, lecturers always going on strike? This is now the… we are moving into the third month of the ASUU strike…

Anya: Well let’s be fair, the kind of things happening in the university did not happen in my time but the seeds of it were already being planted by the government. The central problem about this is that government, successive governments have sat down to negotiate and after the negotiation, they make promises and they don’t keep it. 

In all that I got, government has not been honorable, people in government have not shown integrity so the result is again the thing I mentioned earlier; lack of trust. There is nothing you can do when human being can do not trust the system. That is why even when the government will say we will do this, yes we’ve heard that before but it is possible we have a new crop both in the university and in the government who recognize why things…why education is important in the kind of Nigeria we want to build, so the university becomes priority. Because, whether we like it or not, I am a retired professor not only…a professor that is known in Nigeria and outside Nigeria. My pension which is a reflection of what I earned is not enough to pay for the diesel that we’re burning right now.

My pension each year cannot buy the diesel, you know [laughs] if people tell you what professors now earn in comparison with other African countries, I’m not even talking about…you will be ashamed. So it’s a matter of priority. If you have a government that has a priorities right, when you ask people to make sacrifices, they are willing to make it because they see you that you’re making the sacrifices. We have leaders who are not prepared to make any sacrifice in the national interest but they want other people to make the sacrifice while they grow fatter. That’s the problem.

Realnews: Well said. And then we were just thinking about something; if we are…if…it is only on the part of the leaders that they are not keeping to that agreement? Do you think ASUU is also not being… not keeping to the terms given the quality of students they are producing now that it’s making it almost very difficult for employers of labor to have students they can employ without having to retrain them?

Anya: Well let me say…

Realnews: Are they also leaving up to expectations? I mean ASUU?

Anya:Its easier for them to live to their expectation for it is for government to keep its word. And the reason is simple. I graduated from University College Ibadan, I thought in the University of Nigeria for 37 years, 29 of those years as a full professor. In all those years, the material for the practical part of what I was teaching was never available really, and we are talking about the better days. 

The facilities I had to be trained as an undergraduate in Ibadan in our time, I never throughout my 37 years experience had half of that to train my students. So, our student’s facilities for training them have been going down, and have remained there.

As somebody said, ‘you think that knowledge is expensive, well, try ignorance.’ Nigeria has been living with ignorance.

You cannot demand a certain high level of performance for your university teachers when you are not providing the basics that they need. However, at the very nature of university, what government doesn’t provide, individuals, brilliant professors as well, managed to get it from the outside world.

 My research was supported by the Medical Research Council of Great Britain. There is nothing in my reputation, I mean internationally, that Nigeria contributed anything to. But it was a national duty, and we were prepared to sacrifice, trying to reproduce, what experience I had, not only in Ibadan, but also at Cambridge, where I was trained. So it is like the egg and the chicken, which comes first.

The same situation we are seeing in our universities, in the 1960’s that was the situation in India. Just one day, the government of India decided that it is not possible to save the Indian university the way they were, so they created the Indian institute of technology, where the rules were quite clear; only the best professors in India could teach in IIT. Only the best students would be admitted there. 

The result was that you introduce a new element of competition in the university system. If you want to teach in IIT, you prove yourself by becoming one of the best. And because they applied that consistently, unwaveringly, the IIT got up, and as they got up, they started dragging other universities to higher standards.

In India, has it occurred to you that right now, all the major technology companies in the world, including Microsoft, their CEO’s are Indians. So they are dominating the management of technology companies in the world. Where is it coming from, from the IIT’s.

Invest in your universities, the return will come latter. But we have people who do not even know that that is the way that development operates. Invest in human resources, which is why countries like Japan and few others have absolutely no natural resources yet they are doing well because the human brain can create things beyond the human imaginations.

This Dubia that we all rush out to was a desert. It is human ingenuity and human vision that took a patch of desert and created it into what it is, and it has become a centre of the world. You want to go to the east, you get to Dubia, and you can go to Australia, and you can go to China. You want to go to Europe, you get to Dubia, and you can go to Europe. You want to go to go to the US, you get to Dubia, and you can go there. It has become a centre of the world because human beings dreamt it, worked for it, and it happened.

It can happen in Nigeria.

Realnews: Yes! yes… that is quite an elaborate way of putting it. But is there really any way out for Nigeria, do you see it because I remember in one of our interviews, you said that Nigeria was going through the pangs of rebirth, and it has been almost 7 years since you made that statement, and we have not seen any rebirth taking place. How long is it going to take before we see this?

Anya: cuts in.

Anya: When in 2020 or there about, when the economy was growing at about 8%, if you had a government that succeeded following what was being done, we probably would be at 11% by now. But we went back, reverse gear, and started again at 2%. And 2% was again typical of what was happening when the military was in charge, so we returned to what we had passed.

So long as you do not get the situation where one generation come and build, the next generation comes, not to break down the foundations, but to build on the foundation that has been laid, then you can grow.

You can grow to the point where for example, China did it, where they got to the point that only the best could get into the communist party. And what did they do, they made a rule that you get the best of one generation, and start training them, not only in terms of intellect, not only in terms of governance, but on the values of the society. Then when that generation grows up to a point where it is part of the leadership, that generation is now in charge of China, and they run it for 10 years, and a new generation takes over. Although it looks as if (1:09:53)…? Wants to tweak it, what will happen, we don’t know. But the important thing is that once you started a process and you can continue it for one, two, three generations, the system takes off and becomes on auto pilot, but a positive auto pilot, not the type that we are in right now.

 Realnews: let me just ask again, what do you make of the insecurity in the south east?

Anya: The south east issue is easy to be solved. Why do I say so? 

It is easy to restore confidence in the youth, if you now have a leadership that now tries to bridge the gap between the youths in terms of ideas, in terms of expectations, and so on. Because our youths still have the tendency to work hard, and that is important. Our youths have also shown that they can also use their brains.

What has now happened is that because everybody now wants a shot cut to wealth, and the result of course has been that that talent they have, they have been using it for negative rather than for positive things. But if you have the right kind of leadership, if you can multiply Soludo, here, there and there, you will suddenly find out that the people will look up to their government. And when they do, it is not so that the government will do anything for them, but the government will create the right environment like it was in eastern Nigeria for the people to do the things they want to do, to be the best they can, and you can now move that into other parts of Nigeria.

You know one thing, even at this time that things are bad as they are, whether it is Anambra or Abia, south eastern states still produce the highest number of good performance in the school certificate. Even now, because it is an attitude of mine that has been cultivated from generation to generation, the thing now is to redirect them to use that more positively and to contribute to their training, and to contribute to other good things being multiplied in the other parts of the country.

They will be confidence, not only between them and the surrounding states, but also between them and the larger picture of a bigger Nigeria.  South East can drive that, the population to do it is there. And even when they talk about the south east having the smallest number in terms of population, but they forget that in every state of Nigeria, after those who are indigenous to that place, the next large number of people are the easterners, all over the country.

When you get to the point where you factor in their contribution to the national growth, then you realize that it is not a small figure ascribed who are left in the south east, that the greater number are outside, but where ever they are, use them for the good of Nigeria.

Realnews: Nnamdi Kanu’s case came up, and the court squashed 8 out of the 15 cases that were brought against him. How do you see it, and how can that case be resolved so that Nigerians can be more united and move towards 2023 elections in peace.

Anya:  I think that overall, things have started moving in the right direction. What do I mean by that?

You see, good leadership is seen not only in what you do, not only in what you say, but in the risk you take. A good leader must take some risk, and be prepared to put something on the table in support of that his risk. 

Where we are, the Nnamdi Kalu’s problem, which did not start as it were; to be violent, or difficult for Nigeria, but was to express the anger and the alienation of the youths of the south east.

Let’s be honest, does it make sense that for example, you do an exam, you score 250 or more, you are denied admission into the university, and somebody who scored 150 is admitted. When that happens, it brings a sense of injustice. Remove that sense of injustice, you will find that people will now become reasonable. That is why it is necessary occasionally to take a calculated risk. In this case, release Nnamdi Kanu, he has had his experience, maybe you can give the conditions in which he can enjoy his new freedom, but at least the youth will now see that this called freedom, the society is prepared to forgive you, and because the society has forgiven you, we can reintegrate ourselves in the society and can do the things we want to do.

And once you create a new atmosphere for the young people to look after then to get something to do, you will find that there will be a sea-change; they will now be the leaders of the new Nigeria that will be emerging. But is is a calculated risk.

Realnews: So, yo are saying that President Buhari should take the risk of releasing Kanu

Anya: Cuts in.

 Exactly, releasing him because when people I should have been at a meeting that took place in Owerri on Saturday. When you look at the people that gathered at that meeting, and what was said, there were two things that were emphasized, let there be a political solution to the Nnamdi Kanu issue.

In other words, even leaders are prepared to give a commitment that they will police him so that he won’t be allowed to get out of hand again.

The second thing in that meeting was this question of zoning of the presidency, saying it is our turn, not because it is our turn, but because we are capable. Is not just turn by turn you know, but we are capable.

We have mentioned some of the names, look through Nigeria now, can you have people better than, who have actually shown competence more than some of the people we have mentioned.  Again, it is a risk. Nigeria has to take a risk on the south east, but it is a risk that is manageable, and it is a risk that will produce bounty harvest for Nigeria. Old things have happened; old things have given way to new things. We should build on the new. Even those who say the south east… look at Obasanjo’s government, look at Ya’adua’s government, and look at Goodluck Jonathan’s government, some of the leading names that did noteworthy things in those governments were Igbos. 

It was that system that produced a Soludo for example. So why is it that when it comes to giving responsibilities to solve difficult problems in Nigeria, the Igbo man is called, but when it now comes to the things that comes out of labour, to distribute it fairly… and the good thing is that the best teaching is by example.

If the young people of Nigeria interacted, the Igbo youth will be a positive influence on the northern youths for example because they will imitate each other. And the problems that are in the north that they want to solve will take a new direction.

Liberate the country, liberate the talents in the country, and you will find that good, competent people will come from all parts of the country.

Realnews: yes…

So do you also think that if Nnamdi Kanu is released, this sit-at-home in the south east will end?

Anya: It is already ending; let me put it that way. Because two things have emerged. First, the IPOB people have said they have withdrawn their order; people should be free to go about their business; that is one.

The second is that there is now a willingness about the Igbo leadership to tell the younger generation so people are taking back the obligation of leadership in the south east.

Before now, we were all watching, and things were going from bad to worse, but now, as we saw in the meeting on Saturday in Owerri, people are still saying enough is enough.

So there is going to be a change. in fact, the change has already started, because once there is agreement as it is now, it becomes easy to now look out for those rogue element that have used the atmosphere of uncertainty to commit the whole criminalities and with it reasonable conclusion. 

In all that, there is calculated risk because as part of the new thinking, you saw Soludo also took a chance, he said, stop this, fine! As a result of that, there has been an attack, but it is not going to make him stop. There are now going to be firmer hands to make sure that this stops.

That is the way you begin, and you build.

Realnews: Did we learn any lesson from that sit at home?

Anya: Well, we have learned a lesson. The lesson we learned is how precarious the existence of our people are. Because that day people didn’t go to do the little things they do to get the money for today’s feeding showed that poverty in the south east is still lower than in some other parts of Nigeria. But it is still unacceptable. 

Now you know the measure of the problem. So the governors have been saved. There is job is cut out for them.

Realnews: Did it affect other parts of the country?

Anya: I think the good thing that will come out from where we are now is that there are lessons that we will learn and this time, the lessons will go throughout Nigeria because the suffering has been throughout Nigeria.

You see, the war was an enclave war. We locked up in Biafra, in the south eastern Nigeria, we were at war, we were learning the lesson. ‘Owembe’ party was still going on in Lagos, and Kaduna was still running itself as if nothing was happening. But there was a war.

So, the result was that the lessons we learned from that were not national. But this time, the lessons we are learning now cuts across the board, all parts of the country have seen their own measure. What they are suffering in Sokoto is different from what they are suffering in Benue. What they are suffering in Benue is different from what they are suffering in Ondo, and what they are suffering in Ondo is different from what they are suffering in Abia. So each one will take charge of its own problem and solve it. 

As you solve your own problem, you see that that problem will lead you to observe and understand the other person’s problem, and then you’ll join forces. So a new foundation for the country will emerge.

Realnews: Is there any other thing you will like to say with regards to what is happening in the country?

Anya: More and more people… you know in the lecture I gave, I titled it “in search of statesmen, patriots, and elders”. That is what is missing in Nigeria. 

Let statesmen in Nigeria stand up to be counted, not everybody will like what you are saying, some people will be happy and say, it’s good Prof. Anya has said something. Some will also say, Prof. Anya again?

But that is not going to stop me from saying what needs to be said, until we get out from this particular tunnel that we are in, and I am sure that in every part of Nigeria, we have statesmen who are watching each other and watching the country. 

On Friday, yeah, on Friday, a former minister of the federal government under this civilian regime, phoned me, said he has read the lecture that my thinking fits in with the thinking of many of them in the north. He comes from Maiduguri area. 

But that he wants me to go a step further, that I should have a meeting with the Obi of Onitsha, and that the two of us will come and see certain people in the north, that he believes that many of them have confidence in the Obi, and have confidence in me. That if we come, the reassurance that many of them in the north are expecting from the elites, from the leadership, once they start getting that reassurance, that I will find that things will start going in the way I am suggesting. 

This is an interview, so I won’t give you the name, but it happened just this Friday, after reading the lecture which I just published. And you know of course that Christopher Kolade and myself, we brought a group of elders, and we were meeting from time to time, looking at the problems of Nigeria. They call us the burdened elders.

How did we get the name, you press people, how did you call us?… because in that first press release, we started by saying ‘we are burdened’, and we then talked about the way the country was. So you people now decided that we were the burdened elders. Such people still exist. We now need to multiply the number so that when we speak, we are speaking for Nigeria. And whether people in government or out of government, people will listen because of the background and the track record of the membership of the elder.

Many of us we are not looking for money any longer, we are not looking for office any longer, we are not looking for name either, but we are interested in making sure that Nigeria shapes up and start going in the right direction. Because we do not only have children of our own growing up here, we have grandchildren now and we owe it to them to create, before we go, a better atmosphere in the country so that they can be the best they can be.

That is not possible right now, that is why more and more, young professionals are backing out as we speak to Canada, and we must reverse that trend.

Realnews: Finally, the Beijing conference happened in 1995 and after that, there was a campaign that was carried out – a campaign against violence against women. But you saw what happened to Osinachi, I don’t know if you know this singer…

Anya: cuts in.

 I saw it… yes, ‘Ekweme’. I don’t know the details, but I saw something about abusive relationship…

Realnews: Yes, do you think that violence against women is what we should be witnessing in the country at this point in time…

Anya: I do not think it is only violence against women, I think we must see clearly, that in many things, you cannot shut out half your population in taking part in running the country and doing things in the proper way. 

We must create an environment in which sex does not define what you can do, but it is what you can do that defines who you are.

Unfortunately, most areas of Nigeria, the cultures of Nigeria have inherited patriarchal systems, and what we are seeing is a hangover of that. But we just have to be patient and keep hope on, and things will start changing. I mean, how many men will not respect Ngozi Okonjo Iwe-ala, hardly, but she is a women like any other. She has a husband. So as more and more of this kind of people are multiplied, it becomes easier to show by example what should happen, but it also means that there are things… you see, before, we used to teach history in our schools, we used to teach civic in the school.

Then suddenly… if you don’t teach history, how do your children know that there are heroes in the country, and therefore they are role models. It is history that teaches you what people have done so that you learn to look to the good ones and reject the bad ones. And that is the way it ought to be.

So our education is now central to what needs to be done in the new Nigeria that must come. The whole paraphernalia of education will have to change because it is human beings that will build that new Nigeria. It is not the oil that we have. We have seen that oil have brought us more curses than blessings. But the human beings, invest in them, you will reap a bountiful harvest.

It also means you have to go back to the values of the society… in that lecture, remember, I drew attention to the seven normative values in the Igbo society. That is why when the Igbo came out, there was a value system, and they judge success and failure on the basis of that value system, they judge what is right and wrong on the same basis. And that is why they could do what they did under Okpara.

Restore good leadership in Igbo land, restore good leadership in Nigeria. The sky is the limit what Nigerians can do. The youths of Nigeria showing everyday what they are doing in Europe, in US every day, Canada is hungry for more and more Nigerians, but we will reverse the trend, more and more Nigerians will remain to build Nigeria.

Realnews: I think we will end it at that even though there are so many questions, especially the one that has to do with the importation of bad fuel into the country which is reminiscence of what happened during the Abacha era.

Anya: Those in charge know what is wrong. It is whether they have the courage to do what needs to be done. And it has to start from oil subsidy.

You cannot be subsidizing things that are not transparent and expect that people in the society will take the suffering that is being inflicted on them, no, it won’t happen.

People will try to find their own accommodation. And as you find that, as you find your own accommodation, you will bump into people who are also trying to find their own accommodation, and there cannot be peace. And it has to start with the government is taking the right decision.

And when you come to the point where 80% of Nigerian oil we are told is stolen. You ask yourself, do we have a government? Because if we have a government, that will not happen.

Realnews: Don’t we have a way to know who is stealing it, to find those stealing the oil?

Anya: If you find them, and I am sure that those in government know them. Unless you do something about it, it is like the bandit, unless you, unless you… it will get to the point where people know that there is a price to pay for doing the wrong things, they won’t stop.

And that is what government is about; to define the incentives that should be given to people for good behavior, the reward that should go to people for good behavior, and the punishment that must go to people for bad behaviour. That is how society corrects itself. You don’t have it, then it is a free for all, and the criminals will always have the upper hand when it is a free for all.

– May. 03, 2022 @ 18:34 GMT |   A I.

Tags: Akinwumi Adesina Dangote EFCC ICPC Mohammed Hayatu-deen Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala Olusegun Obasanjo Peter Obi Sam Ohuabunwa